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 Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...

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FleurDeLis
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PostSubject: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:34 am

What's happening in public schools kinda blows my mind. In the last few years, there has been a growing initiative to tackle the bully-syndrome in public schools. I get it, having a bully in the classroom can be disruptive and the children who are exposed to a bully don't fancy the experience. However, I had bullies in school and I survived; moreover, experiencing the bullies taught me early on that there are assholes in this world and you will bump into them whether you like it or not so you better learn to deal with it. In part, the schools are teaching students how to identify a bully and how to address issues that may arise. So far so good. It goes further though, schools and the media likewise seem to think it's a smart move to bully the bully. In addition, schools reserve the option to indefinitely suspend the alleged bully from school. Parents can then pay for private schools.

Meanwhile, disabled children get loads of attention, attention that costs the taxpayers some serious money. If there is a disabled child in the classroom, the teacher usually requires a teaching assistant because the child's disability often requires curriculum adaptations and one-on-one work. Thanks to No-Child-Left-Behind (NCLB) and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), you are not to lump all disabled kids together even though it would actually be more efficient in terms of work-effort and cost. Furthermore, the school has to make sure every area of the school is accessible to the disabled child; if, for example, the child is bound to a wheelchair, the school has to install ramps, wider door openings, and elevators if there is more than one floor in the school ...

Now, I probably sound like an ass for saying this ... the bully, who is treated like an outcast, is likely to have adequate academic potential; schooling him or her will probably lead to a tax-paying individual. Kids with disabilities, on the other hand, are far less likely to get a real job ... in fact, they often get what I like to call "pity" jobs, unnecessary jobs that are paid through taxes because the job isn't really worth a damn but is created to provide disabled workers with something to do. Even the National Council for Disabilities has doubts about the effectiveness of integrating disabled kids into public schools; rather than academic education, the council would prefer to see work-related education that actually helps disabled kids to find and develop the useful skills they may have.

Dunno, back in germany they have special schools for disabled kids. Parents there are happy to sent their disabled kids to these schools because they provide teachers with special education with respect to disabilities and the kids learn actual work-related skills according to their mental/physical abilities. In northern Germany, for example, is a center for children and teenagers with down-syndrome who learn whatever they can with respect to running/maintaining a resort-type conference center. I've been there for a conference once and it was amazing; the majority of the employees had down-syndrome and they did an amazing job preparing the resort rooms, conference rooms, food, maintaining the property ... yes, they were slower than people without down-syndrome but they didn't mind cause the entire environment was laid out to foster their skills rather than comparing them to "healthy" folks.
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GenericTylerDurden

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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:05 pm

it's hard to decide this one but I think the Germany way is the right way; America is run by too many special interest groups, all working for themselves and not thinking of the greater good; putting the disabled kids with "normal" kids and giving them access is just inefficient and wasteful of resources and doesn't prepare them for the real world; I do see the other side of the coin though, it helps them fit into society whereas they could "feel" like outcasts in a "special" school; and, America likes to bend towards the feelings of special interests groups; look at the staggering amounts awarded in the courts for "emotional distress" claims and you'll get a clear picture of how our courts and legislative branch feels so sorry for people;

although I am a compassionate person, I do think that the Germany style you mention is better for everyone;

regarding bullies though, I don't think taxpayers should be burdened for that; bullying is a choice and if it's a wrecked family that produces the bully, abusive parents or whatever, then that's a different story; then we'll have to treat them like orphans, remove them from their parents, and then blah blah blah; but I can't take pity on a bully because being a bully is a choice and it's definitely curable by the parents; physical handicaps and mental retardation require resources that the parents couldn't possibly provide;

sometimes it's hard to call a bully out because you will suffer social consequences too; the person who rats out the popular bully will be outcast anyways so often the bullying is under the table and goes unseen anyways; I do agree that kids should just deal with it and parents should teach their kids not to bully, and if it gets serious then the administration can step in, but give a 3-strikes rule so both the bully and the parents have time to comply;
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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:48 pm

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it's hard to decide this one but I think the Germany way is the right way; America is run by too many special interest groups, all working for themselves and not thinking of the greater good; putting the disabled kids with "normal" kids and giving them access is just inefficient and wasteful of resources and doesn't prepare them for the real world; I do see the other side of the coin though, it helps them fit into society whereas they could "feel" like outcasts in a "special" school; and, America likes to bend towards the feelings of special interests groups; look at the staggering amounts awarded in the courts for "emotional distress" claims and you'll get a clear picture of how our courts and legislative branch feels so sorry for people;

I see the other side too but I think it's more of an illusion than anything else. Integration into society is all fine and dandy but they will never be fully integrated ... and I feel it's better for a disabled child to be around others with disabilities in terms of fitting in rather than facing children without limitations all day long; that would drive me angry and feeling left out.

Quote :
regarding bullies though, I don't think taxpayers should be burdened for that; bullying is a choice and if it's a wrecked family that produces the bully, abusive parents or whatever, then that's a different story; then we'll have to treat them like orphans, remove them from their parents, and then blah blah blah; but I can't take pity on a bully because being a bully is a choice and it's definitely curable by the parents; physical handicaps and mental retardation require resources that the parents couldn't possibly provide;

At a certain age being a bully may be a choice. I'm talking about elementary school kids though, I don't think they really make the choice to be a bully ... it's either a lack of or bad parenting imo. I'm not suggesting to let them be a bully though I probably didn't make that clear ... I'm thinking that resources devoted to disabled kids or other inefficiently used resources could be used to help the bully drop his or her act.

Another sad side of the restructuring and standardizing schools for NCLB is that funding for gifted kids is getting cut cut cut ... some states had a 90% drop in funding other states lost all the funding. I have to kids who are considered academically gifted and while we were in Hawaii they couldn't get gifted education(GE) cause Hawaii''s budget doesn't allow for GE anymore. Thus far we are lucky that Texas still has GE programs and our kids get the stimulation they need, otherwise they would get sooo bored that school turns into a nightmare; I've been there myself and it wasn't cool at all ... my kids love GE classes, it's their favorite part of school.
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Oliver

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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:43 am

Bulling was very common in my middle school. Not like today, when people are aware of it. I was bullied a few times and I used to dread going to school and face the bully everyday, but over the sudden the bulling stopped. Maybe something to do with the fact of me beating the living crap out of the bully.
It happened about four times. Three of those did not end up very well for the bullies. I was about reaching the boiling point with the fourth one when the school year ended and he moved to another school.
I still remember one day coming back home all banged up, and my parents asking me if I was fighting. I only told them that I had a fight with a bully and they didn't say anything after that. I guess they were proud to see their son defending himself. If I had told my father about the bully, most likely he would tell me to hit the bully in the balls.
Today, looking back at that situation I think that I acted right...LOOK AT THAT KID...YOU CAN BULLY HIM AND HE WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT....or.....LOOK AT THAT KID....IF YOU BULLY HIM, HE MAY REACT AND FIGHT YOU.
I also wonder if those bullies went after other kids after that.
The problem is....not many kids have the guts to fight back and the scars are much uglier than the ones you get while fighting. I'm glad that nowadays people are more aware of the problem and are doing something about it.

I agree with Lils about disabled people and I may sound like a bigger ass on the issue. It may not be fair to small number disabled people not to have the same opportunities than normal people, but it is also not fair for the majority of normal people having to adjust their lives in order to accommodate a few disabled people. Disabled people have limitations in many areas and will never be as productive as a normal person in those areas. It makes a lot more sense to use resources in order to help a person with disabilities in the areas where they can be productive and help them adjust to a normal society.
I'm not talking about a giant stadium having elevators and bathrooms accessible to wheelchairs....I'm cool with that....my problem is with the owner of a small business having to do the same.
There is a mild retarded lady working at the supermarket near my house bagging groceries. She seems very happy with her job, she is productive and I'll not be surprised if she does a better job than a normal person would do.


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GenericTylerDurden

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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:48 am

that's a good perspective; not all of the bullied are fortunate enough to fight back and win lol

it's a good utilitarian point of view to measure the burden placed on the vast majority versus the burden placed on the minority; at that point it becomes somewhat of a Kantian vs. Utilitarian philosophy; how liberal or narrow do we define "equal rights for all" and at what point does "equal" rights become too ridiculous to extend to every class of citizen;?
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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:08 pm

GenericTylerDurden wrote:
that's a good perspective; not all of the bullied are fortunate enough to fight back and win lol

it's a good utilitarian point of view to measure the burden placed on the vast majority versus the burden placed on the minority; at that point it becomes somewhat of a Kantian vs. Utilitarian philosophy; how liberal or narrow do we define "equal rights for all" and at what point does "equal" rights become too ridiculous to extend to every class of citizen;?

Quote :
that's a good perspective; not all of the bullied are fortunate enough to fight back and win lol
A few things to consider:
-We are talking about mid school here and kids don't come to school with guns....not yet, but I'm sure that the NRA is working hard on it.
-You may don't have to win in order to get a bully out of your back. In one of the cases, I just shoved the guy back and told him to fuck off in front of everyone during a break in the classroom...that was enough to get him out of my back.
-In the other two cases I had to fight for my freedom. In one of the cases the bully became a punch bag...the asshole chicken out and did not lift a finger to defend himself...needless to say that he had to be rescued from me...and I think that was the end of his bully career. In the other case, the fight was ugly. The bully punched back and that's the one that I end up all banged up. I actually had to fight the kid twice. The first time, the fight was pretty much even, but the "instigators"(the other kids who love to watch a fight) kept telling him that he won the fight, consequently the bulling became a lot more intense, until the day I exploded again. It was ugly...I came back home dirty, with my shirt missing a few buttons, a swollen lip/face and bleeding a little bit on my chest....yeah, I was bit by a bully, lol....I just have a feeling that he end up in a worse situation because he never bothered me again.


Quote :
at what point does "equal" rights become too ridiculous to extend to every class of citizen;?
http://www.caller.com/news/2009/jan/13/local-man-sues-hooters-claims-gender-bias-seeks/

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PostSubject: Re: Educating Bullies vs. Disabled Children ...   Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:31 pm

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